Thursday, February 24, 2005
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KP raised, and then dropped, a great discussion of propriety and clothing at church. At the risk of offending all my friends, I'll pick it up.
I come from a harshly judging background with respect to clothing. We dressed to display our parents' wealth, and to be beautiful. Our parents taught us to judge girls for wearing pants to church (never wore shorts), boys for wearing hats or tennis shoes, sloppiness, casualness, and for owning something like brand new Guess jeans from Dayton's that couldn't even have been on sale yet. Inappropriate casualness offends a formal and awesome God, and shopping full-price is ostentatious, also a sin. Sexiness or tightness of clothes were never an issue because we were all totally sexually repressed. (I wish some of this judgmental energy had been directed at our pedophile pastor, where it could have actually done some good).
I now believe that understandings of dress are entirely cultural - that is, created and shared among groups of people. So, for the Venezuelan Yanamamo, you're "dressed" if you have a cotton thread tied around your waist, and are otherwise unclothed. Unclothed women are modest if their legs are more-or-less together - can't sit cross-legged in mixed company. They expect anthropologists to follow the customs of the anthropologist's home culture. If an anthropologist tries to wear a string, the people laugh and laugh.
I'll write a bit more about my perspective tomorrow, but I want to see what you think of this case study. This really happened, in an organization I'm part of, at an event I didn't attend. Names have been changed.
Fifty people have come together for worship, from around the country, from different Christian traditions, though the organization is presumably evangelical. Marie leads worship. She is a Liberated West Coast Feminist Environmental Democratic Hemp-Wearing Christian. She is in front of the group, arms raised, eyes closed, praising Jesus. She wears a light white t-shirt with no bra. Her bobbling breasts and nipples were reportedly more interesting than Jesus. Debby took her aside and said that she needed to wear a bra with this group, especially when leading worship. Marie said, "I'm liberated, and Jesus loves me the way I am. I love my body, and I won't allow you to bind my breasts!" She left the event, and reportedly the organization, furious.
What do you think? Was Marie's dress inappropriate? Was Debby's confrontation inappropriate? Should the people have been able to worship even in the bold presence of Marie's boobs?
KP raised, and then dropped, a great discussion of propriety and clothing at church. At the risk of offending all my friends, I'll pick it up.
I come from a harshly judging background with respect to clothing. We dressed to display our parents' wealth, and to be beautiful. Our parents taught us to judge girls for wearing pants to church (never wore shorts), boys for wearing hats or tennis shoes, sloppiness, casualness, and for owning something like brand new Guess jeans from Dayton's that couldn't even have been on sale yet. Inappropriate casualness offends a formal and awesome God, and shopping full-price is ostentatious, also a sin. Sexiness or tightness of clothes were never an issue because we were all totally sexually repressed. (I wish some of this judgmental energy had been directed at our pedophile pastor, where it could have actually done some good).
I now believe that understandings of dress are entirely cultural - that is, created and shared among groups of people. So, for the Venezuelan Yanamamo, you're "dressed" if you have a cotton thread tied around your waist, and are otherwise unclothed. Unclothed women are modest if their legs are more-or-less together - can't sit cross-legged in mixed company. They expect anthropologists to follow the customs of the anthropologist's home culture. If an anthropologist tries to wear a string, the people laugh and laugh.
I'll write a bit more about my perspective tomorrow, but I want to see what you think of this case study. This really happened, in an organization I'm part of, at an event I didn't attend. Names have been changed.
Fifty people have come together for worship, from around the country, from different Christian traditions, though the organization is presumably evangelical. Marie leads worship. She is a Liberated West Coast Feminist Environmental Democratic Hemp-Wearing Christian. She is in front of the group, arms raised, eyes closed, praising Jesus. She wears a light white t-shirt with no bra. Her bobbling breasts and nipples were reportedly more interesting than Jesus. Debby took her aside and said that she needed to wear a bra with this group, especially when leading worship. Marie said, "I'm liberated, and Jesus loves me the way I am. I love my body, and I won't allow you to bind my breasts!" She left the event, and reportedly the organization, furious.
What do you think? Was Marie's dress inappropriate? Was Debby's confrontation inappropriate? Should the people have been able to worship even in the bold presence of Marie's boobs?
99 Comments:
Boobs throw me way off. Can't focus. Cover the boobs for Jesus. But really, there is a reason for the saying, when in Rome do as the Romans do. To bring offense to everyone of that culture is to lose the ability to communicate with them. Not a good thing if communication is one of the only ways we can attempt to foster a relationship between two different cultural parties.
By
Jimmy, at 12:59 PM
LOL! Ah, Jimmy--I love his honesty. (What IS the big deal? I will never understand). Anyway, I think it goes to both--Marie should be willing to listen to the group while the group should be open to looking at their standards and evaluating them. Or maybe just turn the thermostat down and she'd have to put on a sweater.
By
Solomon's Girl, at 1:34 PM
Well, I do have an opinion. I think that the boobs should stay. I know the 'when in Rome' argument, but the truth is, sometimes the Romans are wrong...and when they are, they're wrong no matter what country we're in.
BUT, I see the other side of the argument too. If the boobs are okay, then where's the line. How's about topless? Totally naked-coed worship? Frankly, having practiced nudism before, I have no theological problem as such, with this.
I think maybe, Jenell, adhering to the cultural standards from which you find your identity may be the best. Accepting differences in those standards NEEDS to be a part of a truly 'multicultural' church (even if that multicultural refers to groups of poeple not seperated by geographical distance.)
Thus, the beautifully boobed woman was behaving appropriately according to the cultural tradition in which she found her identity. To me, and this is just opinion, to conceal the boobs isn't just a bad idea, it's sinful.
By
Brandon, at 3:12 PM
Hats are an interesting issue- I love my hat and only take it off in church because I know someone will be offended. I doubt they know why they're offended. The tradition of a man removing his hat carries as much weight to me as that of a woman having her head covered. But it's easier to take the hat off for a bit than to rationally discuss fine theological details...
Other than that, I do wish women were more aware of the effect their clothing can have on men. Yes, I know that I am responsible for my own eyes and thoughts. But it would be nice if a church gathering were generally 'safe' rather than a place of temptation.
By
Ben, at 3:14 PM
yahoo! thanks for taking this up, Jenell. Colleen and I were spitting all over each other yesterday morning, still talking about the same topic.
Personally, I think to go without a bra (in white, no less!) in front of people is stupid and somewhat disrespectful. but then again, where's the line?
Ben (commenter before me) offered a peak into the can of worms I think this discussion really is: the "scariness" of women as sexual beings in church. (Can the 2 be separated? No! Just b/c women are inherently more beautiful than men doesn't mean it should be all our burden to figure out how to dress at church. Should j. bormes cover his face at church? it's pretty hot. that would be ridiculous - likewise, i will wear tanktops in the summer.)
No offense, Ben - I hope none came across. I just jumped off your comment and kept going...
By
kp, at 3:49 PM
If Debby told her she "needed" to wear a bra, that might have been a bit tactless. A gentler approach, pointing out that others were distracted might have been better -- and perhaps allow Marie to pick her own solution.
I don't like dress codes that are externally enforced. But I do think we can exhort folks to take responsibility for how their clothing choices affect others, particularly if we our ostentatiousness or our sexuality or our flamboyance makes others uncomfortable. But if folks choose to interpret that exhortation differently, then we just have to leave it lay where it is (as I was taught to say.)
By
Hugo, at 3:52 PM
As the brothas that I work with say...'let's keep it real'....
I don't know any heterosexual man whose head doesn't turn when they see nipples.
They are like kryptonite to men.
A man could be having a conversation with Billy Graham, the Pope, and the Dalai Lama about celibacy and some nipples followed by a woman walk by and the man will forget all that was being discussed. No telling what the 3 other guys would do...
As far as the situation you mention...
I think that for Marie not to understand the culture she is a part of is just as bad as Debbie not understanding there were was a potential cultural change.
There are better ways to change a culture than showing your nipples to people you presumably have only met briefly at a conferece.
By
Javier, at 4:20 PM
To throw my bra in the ring :) I think wearing a bra, in this context would be a good thing. But I really think it depends on her intentions. If her intent is to reach these people at the conference, then as any good anthropologist would note, you have to meet people where they are at. Otherwise, you are going to so offend them that they will not be able to hear your words because they are looking at your nipples. However, if your intention is to do your own thang in the Lord, then praising him sans bra is the way to go for her. Notwithstanding, as Dave Chappelle has noted, sometimes "keepin' it real" can go wrong.
-Andrea
P.S. Jenell, I finally meet Marla and I think I will be a volunteer at a conference she is doing about AFAM religion.
By
Andrea, at 4:51 PM
carla here. I have a dear friend who is a big name writer and I can tell you that whenever people who know her talk about her, it always comes around to the fact that she doesn't wear undergarments--something that is occasionally obvious. I don't think that's what she wants to be known for.
I think it's arrogant of Marie to dress with seemingly little concern for the impact on other people. There is a fine line between being yourself/expressing yourself and being offensive. And yes, it might be the other person's problem if they are offended (or turned on), but part of being in relationship with others is to take their thoughts and feelings into consideration.
By
Anonymous, at 5:08 PM
Your entry was very interesting - it reminds me of a high school sunday at church. During sunday school many years ago we were discussing C.S. Lewis. A friend of mine, fairly well endowed in the upper region, was making a point...we all listened attentively - trying not to notice her breasts just about falling out of her low cut shirt, all except our 40 year old sunday school teacher. After she finished he just stared at her chest kinda homer simpson like...then he put his hand out in the air covering her breasts from his sight...slowly looked up to her eyes and said, "could you repeat that? I wasn't paying attention to a thing you said." Obviously embarrassed he immediately added - if you want to dress like that in this culture then expect to be treated with the same lack of dignity. Show me your boobs and that's what i'll value you on...show me your brain and the same holds true. That was always a hilarious but thoughtful lesson for all of us, women and men alike. As far as this situation. Well yes God intended us to enjoy our bodies and be proud of them. But not if we know its a hindrance to the faith of another - if boobs don't bother anyone, flaunt em - if they hinder your faith cover em up. The same applies all kinds of grey issues (ex. use of alcohol) I feel like the real issue here is one of pride. Was she more consumed in her own rights, freedoms, and self - or was she genuinely interested in Christ's love and desires. It's an interesting argument...I mean, I never heard of Jesus preaching with his penis hanging out - sure that would've caused some problems too. Just not sure that was the right place for her actions. Another culture maybe, but we know this one and we need to be all things to all people in the effort to win a few. On the other side us men need to do a better job focusing typically so a challenge is a good thing - and its tough being a woman to pick out material that is beautiful and appropriate in this day and age. Regardless, I'd probably leave during her talk. If she really cared about what she was saying - she would have tried to sell me on that, not sell me on her boobs. Or maybe what she had to say wasn't really important so in an effort to still have people like her she figured why not! my speech sucks but at least I got these for them to have some fun with until I'm done babbling.
By
andebos, at 6:14 PM
Tyler, wow. If any youth leader I work with now pulled what your Sunday School teacher did, I'd be in his face lickety-split. That just seems incredibly demeaning.
It is not a man's job to police women's attire. (It is that of other women, I think.)
Our job is to disciple ourselves. When confronted with temptation, I don't grow spiritually if I blame my sister for flaunting her body (knowingly or not). I only grow when I accept responsibility for my eyes and my thoughts. I can notice, look for three seconds, and then if I keep on looking, that's all on "me" not on "her."
A lot of this conversation seems to revolve around a "myth of male weakness" that I find troubling. We are stronger than we realize.
I think I have something to post about at my own place sometime soon.
By
Hugo, at 6:26 PM
On the same note I was wondering your opinion on what us men do to distract the body as well? by that I mean is there something similar, but gender opposite, that men do to affect men and women from genuine worship? it's an interesting question - I'll give kudos to your worship leader too for practicing her freedom...and it gives her and everyone chances at forgiveness and real community - I mean what kind of christians would we be if we didn't annoy each other most of, if not all, the time?
By
andebos, at 6:26 PM
I'm just some guy who was directed here by KP (what up, KP), but my two cents are:
1) Breasts in church. Well, I'm both male and weak, and if I get distracted by them, I get distracted by them, but that would be something I would want to clearly mark under the category of "my own damn problem." Men need to have the kindness to assume that women who dress in seemingly "provocative" ways are not doing so to provoke and are not inviting stares, objectification or admonishment.
Presumably women have a matching responsibility, which probably involves thinking about the likely effect of what they're wearing on us neanderthals (as well as on other women for that matter)--but, unlike Tertullian, I think that's a task best left to well-intentioned and discerning women.
By
Phil, at 8:25 PM
And absolutely no offense taken kp (KP? kP?)- I come from a background of sexual addiction and I know my hang-ups are not universal. I think there are actually a few men out there that are not so sexually oriented that they can relate to any given woman as a person, without any sexual undertone. But if they're American and straight, I'd have my doubts.
I would not ever want to do anything that caused a woman to be uncomfortable with herself, either. I know that's a big struggle for a lot of women. If I encountered 'Marie' in her home church, I think it would be my responsibility to leave if I couldn't handle the way she was attired. But if she were, as in Jenell's example, gathering with a diverse group, my opinion is that she should give consideration to a weaker brother or sister.
And let me balance that as well- Romans 14 talks about the weak and the strong, and about not causing another to stumble. But buried in that passage is a short verse- :16, "Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil." Which to me means, if God has told you something is good, don't let anybody take it away from you. Which doesn't mean you flaunt it in their face, quite the opposite if it will cause them to stumble, but for you, it is a good, God-given thing.
By
Ben, at 8:49 AM
Here is the transcript from a recent church staff meeting....
Staff: "Pastor Jimmy good to see you back, we missed you in the office the other day. We heard that you had to take Katie to the doctor.... is everything OK?"
Me: "Oh yeah she's fine. We were at the plastic surgeon's office. She had a boob job. She's recovering nicely."
Staff: Awkward silence.
Me: "You should see 'em, they're awesome. She's like a "D" now. They're perfect."
Staff: More silence. Even more awkward.
Me: Slow on the uptake, just starting to notice the wierdness, getting nervous, should probably shut up. "Like I said, you should see 'em. She'll show you if you want."
Staff: Stunned silence, mouths agape.
Here's the deal people. They're just boobs. Half the population has them, deal with it. Boobs have the sexual power that you give them. Men, control your mind. Take responsibility for your own actions. Stop shifting liability. Don't blame one of God's most beautiful creations for your thought life. Get it under control.
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