Friday, February 25, 2005

“There are better ways to change a culture than showing your nipples to people you presumably have only met briefly at a conference.”

That sentence is going to be worked into my intro to anthro class somehow.

I don’t think this is a men-weak vs. women-beautiful issue; it’s mostly a cultural issue. Yanamamo men don’t have problems being aroused by breasts in public, because their culture doesn’t define breasts as sexual. Vulvas aren’t sexual either, but vaginas are. Penises may or may not be sexual, depending on what they are doing (intercourse is seen as sexual and private, but public speaking with penis in view would be fine). Our culture defines “sexual body part” in a particular way, and our visual attention and, to some extent, our sexual arousal, are socialized to correspond. Women revealing all or part of their breasts in church know they are being sexual, and may feel heightened sexuality/beauty, even if arousal isn’t part of it for them. Men being weak and needing to strengthen themselves is not the only issue. Public display of female sexuality is sexual, though not always sexy, for both men and women.

Given our cultural context, men could strengthen themselves individually and stop living in bad patterns they’ve been socialized in (Hugo). Men could desexualize breasts and let women do as they please (Brandon). Women could make choices based upon their knowledge of what men are like in our culture (Jav, Jimmy). Or women could defy the culture and do as they please, regardless of what men do (“Marie”).

I think Marie should cover her breasts in this worship setting, and reveal them in contexts in which fellow worshipers understand what she's doing. If she wants to change the culture, she should do so strategically. Showing breasts in this setting would be like civil disobedience, which would come toward the end of a longer culture-change strategy. If she feels so strongly about bras being repressive, then she may have to limit some of her movement through our culture. (I, for example, feel strongly about not having my clothing or head covering or hair regulated by men in churches. This limits my ability to worship in certain churches.) She has defined ‘sexual body part’ in a way that is understood only by a small American subculture of Christians, and she should restrain her freedom for the sake of proper worship in this conference context.

Hugo writes a lot about male responsibility in a sexualized culture. Let’s try a different question, and keep it to the church context for now. KP says, “Just b/c women are inherently more beautiful than men doesn't mean it should be all our burden to figure out how to dress at church.”

Should women hide their beauty in any way because men may be “distracted” or aroused by seeing them? Does this apply only to breasts, or also to bellies, butts, legs, arms, hair, and/or face? (interesting sideline: can I display my body if I know no one finds its shape attractive?) Is women’s beauty a form of power which they are responsible to use wisely?

And secondly, by what processes should we negotiate this issue? Is it a leadership issue, a community issue, an individual issue, or something else?

// posted by Jenell Williams Paris @ 10:40 AM

38 Comments:

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:35 AM  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:40 AM  

  • oh snap. some bullet points from me:

    1. almost a year ago, someone said, in reference to me leading prayer, "how am i supposed to concentrate with an attractive girl up there?" i don't say this to blow my own horn, but to confess that that was the first time i began to feel GUILTY AWARENESS of what i wore in front of church. i didn't like to have to 'worry' about that, so i don't anymore.

    2. however, i do have an orange skirt that has rested in my closet after someone made a sideways comment about it being too short for church. Guilt, and respect for the speaker, leaves it there.

    3. colleen and i read a bunch of different versions of the bible this morning in reference to the whole 'do not cause a brother to stumble' stuff. Some versions led use to interpret that stumbling is to blame on he/she who stumbles, not on the person who 'caused' the stumbling. (ie, the interpreter of the skirt is at fault, not the wearer of the skirt.) If that is true, then does it matter how one holds oneself?

    4. lastly, where is the fine line between being True to One's God-Made Self and looking out for our brothers and sisters in Christ? i don't know.

    By Blogger kp, at 11:43 AM  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:44 AM  

  • Kira here.... I agree with much of what has been said in regards to this issue. I think Jenell hits it right on to bring up the issue of power. Because of how we view the body and sexuality in our society, sexuality does indeed become a power play, especially for women. A woman knows that if she walks through a mall with most of her breasts hanging out of her clothing, she immediately has the power over almost every man who looks her way. I think it's more a woman being weak to consciously play on the sexual response of men to her breasts. Sexuality can be power, and both men and women are responsible to use it wisely.

    It is a cultural issue, and mostly one of respecting one another. Should men be responsible to de-sexualize breasts? I don't think so. Should women have to wear high collars and ankle-lengths in order to not tempt men? I think not. In the example of Marie, to me she seems clearly in the wrong because she's abusing her role as a leader in a spiritual setting to try and force people top accept the liberation of her boobs. To leave the organization in an outrage clearly shows that her focus was more on her breasts than Christ.

    And yes, I think the whole thing applies to other body parts in addition to breasts, because some men find the baring of a woman's tummy just as sexual as her cleavage. We have the responsibility to respect one another, knowing full well the typical responses of the opposite sex to displays of sexuality. OK, enough from me...

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:45 AM  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:47 AM  

  • Jenell, I've responded at length in my blog. I suspect you and I will disagree a bit, but I am so grateful you presented us with this fscinating topic to play with.

    By Blogger Hugo, at 12:50 PM  

  • I wonder if somewhere in Africa, women are accused of stumbling the men for blatantly wearing a larger than average lip disk. (The nerve!)

    I have spent much of my 20+ years as a christian on the receiving end of various opinions on what I should do with my own breasts. (God given, for the record.) I've been leered at by men and boys, given the stink eye from smaller breasted women, told that it was my responsibility to make sure I they didn't cause a brother to stumble, etc. Sometimes they are not an issue at all (hooray!). The fact is, they're here, they're C's, get used to it.

    On my second trip to Guatemala, I was at breakfast and dropped something down the front of my shirt (occupational hazard). In retrieving said item, I made a comment in which I referred to them as "the girls". Later, I was told by another woman on the trip that my comment was "totally inappropriate" and made her uncomfortable. The funny part of the story is that there was a Guatemalan woman on this person's house building site who CONSTANTLY breast-fed her child. She rarely put her boob back in her shirt when it wasn't in use. No comment of inappropriateness was ever made about her.

    This made me wonder if "working breasts" get more slack than "ornamental" breasts. At Solomon's Porch, it is common to see a woman breast-feeding her child. But God forbid a woman wear a tank top when it's 95 degrees outside.

    In some way I sympathize with Marie. (Although I wear a bra all the time) I consider my dress normal by todays standards, and have decided to wear what I want because someone, somewhere will have an issue with The Girls. What are you going to do?

    Colleen

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:09 PM  

  • I hate to be the party-pooper, but has Marie thought of how her breasts made the other women feel? Women get insecure around other "more attractive" women. It isn't that I don't understand that burden of male weakness is primarily for men to deal with, but how can one maintain community with other females if they are intimidated or insecure in response to her behavior. And for what? why can't she wear a cardigan? Why must an entire congregation deal with her breasts? It seems laden with power-struggle and though I consider myself a feminist, I can't yet see how what she has done has served anybody or any cause.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:29 PM  

  • OK, I deleted Kira's redundant posts - that's what the removals are.

    I appreciate both KP and Colleen, and have heard this expressed by numerous women at church. Why is it that the body is acknowledged and honored more at a bar than in a church? And what is a woman to do with her beautiful breasts? The last anonymous comment makes me sad - that women need to restrain their beauty not only for men's sake, but to reduce other women's jealousy. Ugh.

    I like Colleen's Guatmala example. There's no pastor or theology dictating what we wear at our church. We do speak into each other's lives, however, because we know and love each other. Someone spoke their mind to Colleen (though i don't know what kind of tone or attitude she had), and Colleen considered the comment and thought it through. Even if Colleen continues to wear 'normally' revealing clothes, and referring to her breasts as 'the girls', maybe the other person can at least feel listened to and respected as part of Colleen's spiritual communtiy - not perfect conformity as a group, but real community with diverse views and actions.

    By Blogger Jenell, at 4:55 PM  

  • Shelley here...Let me begin by sayiny that I tend to be pretty modest. I like Jenell's last response. I think we need to take into consideration our community. There are a number of men in our's that are sex addicts.No, it is not my responsibility to control their addiction. I believe though, that I have a responsibilty to consider them, and their situation, as much as my own desires. I give a lot of weight to the idea of "intension" and use it as a reference when contemplating people/situations in my life. "What was Marie's intention?" This helps me form my opinions and decide whether or not it is my place to share that opinion. I like that we have a culture of freedom at church and that includes ourpersonal and diverse choices of clothing. I am also hopful that we are a people who strive to have honest intentions and that these play out in all aspects of our lives together.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:33 PM  

  • I love the fact that community shines through your conversations - the wrestling of issues all in the hopes of strengthening the faith of one another. I live in KC and attend church at Jacob's Well which is very comparable to Solomon's from what I hear.
    It's interesting to hear the different view points from everyone, especially depending on which gender they come from. Thank God that we are made so different in our thinking, as men and women I mean.
    I do believe that we must do our best to control our own impulses and compulsions. But I also believe that we should work hard to help other people. We keep talk about making people stumble...but what about those already stumbling. By that I mean if an alcoholic came to Jacob's Well I'm not going to lead him around carrying a flask of whiskey in my hand - that's just not helping him, especially if he is desperately trying to improve. Yes as men we need to control ourselves but some problems are beyond that. That applies to our condition as humans. The issues is sin and our relationship to Christ. We need to strive to help each other keep that community, and we sacrifice our own freedoms for others. Now did your worship leader perhaps make a mistake and make someone stumble? or hurt someone that's already stumbling? perhaps, and we all make mistakes...the important thing is we are now learning and having conversations - and will we change? hopefully.

    I guess I will always feel it's our responsibility to look out for the younger and weaker...and just because you're younger doesn't mean your weaker, and vice versa. I don't believe God leads people through their compulsions - that looks too demonic. I guess I feel we need to think about our actions and how they are leading others in their actions. With this issue...women's bodies are obviously a temptation for men - God made it that way so a man's wife is ultimately attractive and desirable to him, which she in turn desires to feel from him as well. But they shouldn't use that power to gain power over others. That's leading them through compulsions, desires, and basically sin. And then as women you need to ask yourself - are they following me for my soul or my breasts? hopefully you wouldn't desire to have power because of fat cells in your chest. Men do the same things through other facets. We need to be responsible for leading people through actions that god uses, not satan. There are so many good issues here - and I do believe God loves the fact that we engage in figuring out the truth. I have a sincere feeling that if Christ was in this situation he would have something very profound to say - probably completely about something else that's going on...because we are so typically focused on the wrong thing. And I sometimes also feel that the underlying question with these kind of issues is: do I care more about my brother and sister or my own freedom - or am I more interested in my own agenda (changing culture maybe) or christ's...I think with these kinds of delicate issues...we should have an idea what God is wanting and not only what we want.

    By Blogger andebos, at 11:27 PM  

  • Paris (believe that's your name)

    This is kind of a tangent from the subject but I have slightly considered moving to MN next year to teach elementary school. I want to go somewhere with a good church community and I have heard lots of good things about Solomon's porch. Are there any good community areas in the St. Paul Minneap. area that you would recommend? Either suburbs, communities, parts of town etc?

    By Blogger andebos, at 12:03 AM  

  • i'll weigh in.
    i think that the branch of the family tree with roots in evangelicalism and fundamentalism(a word i hear no one will claim in minnesota despite matching up perfectly, but that's another post) has as part of its history a tradition of heavily burdening women with bearing responsibility for various aspects of male sexuality. women have (and continue) to receive encouragement to "not cause men to stumble" while men are rarely (if ever) as adamantly encouraged to deal with their sometimes all pervasive objectification of women. the church as we so often know it still holds women responsible for the sexual urges of men; the idea that a woman holds power over a man who could easily overpower her if he chose simply because she had cleavage still gets airtime. and a few warnings attached. to the woman. we are also taught that male sexuality is so powerful that once activated is beyond control--another nice idea that firmly posits any change in behavior or accomodation straight in the woman's camp. i agree it's not nice to rub boobies in sex addicts faces (so to speak), but the issue primarily lies for the sex addict. it would be better to keep the pressure there than to suggest to young women that men are powerless in their company. (and if they are, church really isn't a safe place for anybody) it would also help if we were equally reflective with men about how their objectification of women creates an environment where learning how to be on guard and tenative is required. if that got even half the discussion time as women's clothing has received, we'd all be in better shape.

    i think it's a mistake to suppose that the freedom to sport renegade sexuality (a phenomenon that's a more realistic option where people haven't been discussing the evils of premarital sex) is exactly the same as the occasional display of flesh at church. we're playing under very old rules. maybe if some of our worship styles weren't so orgasmic to start (jesus is my boyfriend/lover/all i want is more of you! more, jesus, more!), marie's titties wouldn't be quite as serious a problem.

    okay, i'm too tired to reread this, so let's hope that makes sense.

    By Blogger jen lemen, at 12:27 AM  

  • For me sexual imorality, was instilled in me, when taught I evolved from animals. This being the only good thing that came from my destroyed faith, (so I thought at the time)http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0225von_Zieten.asp

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:03 AM  

  • Thanks, Jenell. I think I'll have to share some thoughts on this on my blog, what an interesting topic.

    By Blogger Brandon, at 1:44 PM  

  • I am a Gnostic Christian, which 96% of the early Christian church was up until the Council Of Nicea in 325 AD, and from what little of the written historical record survives, nudity and even more at times was reasonably common the Early Christian Church up until the CON.

    That said, everything is about context and perception, and I agree with you, J, that modest dress by either gender is a cultural requirement in this society in order to establish and maintain credibility to lead worship services of any faith.

    Not meaning to be flippant, but outside of a nudist colony or swingers' club, appropriate non-nipple or more showing dress should be mandated both by common sense and the respective congregation.

    By Anonymous H. Kent Craig, at 3:06 AM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:32 PM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:32 PM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:32 PM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:32 PM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

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  • "I, for example, feel strongly about not having my clothing or head covering or hair regulated by men in churches."

    It's not supposed to be the men who regulate the women. It's supposed to be the women, taught by the older Christian women, who regulate the women.
    The church is an autocracy, the autocrat being Jesus Christ. Elders and deacons are supposed to only be administrators and servants of the church, carrying out the commands of Christ in daily affairs.
    Something is wrong when elders are constrained to speak to women personally in correction. Either the older women are not carrying out their responsibility to teach and guide the younger women or the younger women (it's usually a young woman who is the object of concern, but sometimes an older one is) are being unruly.
    A woman is supposed to be in submission to her own husband, not as a groveling slavey but as an aide (fit help = help meet in the KJV) or assisting partner to him. If she is not married she should be in submission to her own father (or male head of household if her father is not present). Only indirectly, as are all members of the congregation, is she to be in obedience to the leadership of the church, who are charged with the cure of souls.

    Does the Bible say a (Christian) woman is to cover her head when she prays or "prophesies" in the (meeting of the) church? What is "prophesying?" "Pro + phecy" is "speaking for" or "on behalf of" another. Thus the Christian woman is to be "veiled" when she is "praying" or "prophesying" IN THE CHURCH (sorry, no underline or italic available). Today "prophesying" is "speaking on behalf of [God, or Jesus]." Such as reading the Bible.
    In the early church women were commonly readers. The entire meeting was conducted as if in prayer, with due solemnity.
    Christian women, then, are free to go unveiled outside the church (meeting), though they are also free to wear one at all times.

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