Monday, February 28, 2005

I Wonder...

I wonder what you do on your way home from church? I wonder this every week - please tell me. I drive north on 13th and go east on 28th to Hiawatha (north there to 35W). While on 28th, I turn on KTIS and listen to Dawson Macalaster Live. I can't stand it, every single week, yet it has to be the first thing I tune to. He ministers to youth on the 'hope line.' Young people call in, and then Dawson says, "Hey, man, it's really rough with parents, isn't it? But you know Jesus is a dude on your side, right?"

Then I turn to KNOF 95.3 and praise and worship to bluegrass gospel. The songs are all theologically non-porchy - full of "I can hardly wait until I die and wing to my mansion in the sky", but I truly love it. It is fervent, Jesus-loving music, and I praise Him all way home.

I also wonder...
What gave that stay-at-home mom in Alaska the nerve to write a mean letter to the editor about Carla in Books & Culture? You'd have to have the print version to see it, and really, it's not worth the effort to find it. B&C had printed an excerpt from The Myth of the Perfect Mother, and this mother wrote in about it. It's not that she didn't like the book - she didn't like Carla personally, and made numerous personal insults against her. My favorite? "Barnhill has missed the joy of motherhood." I could probably scrounge around and come up with some weak insult for Carla (maybe, "Her tastes in bathroom decor are a bit last century"), but never in a million years would it be that.

The writer said that in her mothering, she follows Mother Theresa and the Bible. She prays every day, and then serves her husband, then her children, and then works with household finances. (This seems very UNLIKE Mother Theresa, but whatever). She is never frustrated, at the end of her rope, or sad, because she follows the Bible.

It's kudos to Carla, because the author is more or less articulating the very theology and pressure that, even if it doesn't oppress the writer, does harm many women (the ones who like Carla's book)! I was disappointed because her letter was mean and personally attacking, but it made me even more glad that Carla wrote her book.

8 Comments:

  • LaTonya here. I really felt bad when I read that letter re: Carla's article. In fact, I shrieked, "Oh, no!" right there in my office. I do that a lot, though, so no one was really alarmed. Then I was reminded why I've taken to calling myself a Christ-follower instead of a Christian.

    On the way home from church, I listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me and answer all the questions. Sometimes I bask in whatever's starting to happen in my small group.

    By Blogger LaTonya, at 11:01 AM  

  • Solomon's Porch Holisitic Missional Christian Community Dream #289:

    "We dream of a church where no one will listen to KTIS. Ever."

    By Blogger tony, at 11:29 AM  

  • Tony,
    I'm a junkie. I really can't stop going back for an occasional hit.

    By Blogger Jenell, at 12:09 PM  

  • I haven't seen the B&C letter yet, but I did get an e-mail from another friend of mine who'd seen it. Apparently it also calls me "angry and unhappy." So there you go. carla

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:47 PM  

  • I haven't seen the other letter, but someone recently sent me this article: www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/article_1745.shtml

    It references Carla with impressive condescension. Don't know if you've already seen this or not.

    The article made me yell at my computer. Then I yelled at the woman who sent it to me.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:50 PM  

  • I listen to Riverwalk Jazz on PRI,though I could go to it technically because I love in San Antonio. We go to out to lunch, ten hope the baby goes down for a nap. hope you are feeling well.

    By Anonymous erica, at 5:11 PM  

  • 1. Saying that Carla is an angry and joyless mother is the closest thing I've had to a hysterical laughter breakdown one could have. Saying that Carla knows how to weild her mighty anger toward her husband with the goal of future world domination is another.
    2. We could stand a little reshuffling around here of priorities. a. carla starts day with prayer. b. carla serves Jimmy. c. rest of day continues on.
    3. Finally someone is waking up to the hell I live everyday. (while you're laughing, Carla gave me these words).

    By Blogger Jimmy, at 5:51 PM  

  • It's a good five minute drive from home to church- hardly enough time for the tubes to warm up. I'm kinda' tired of our local CCM stations anyway- lately I've been worshipping to Jimmy Buffet and Johnny Cash, with a little Elton John thrown in from time to time.

    Any Christian that is never frustrated, at the end of her rope, or sad, because she follows the Bible, either missed the message or is in extreme denial (probably both).

    By Blogger Ben, at 9:47 AM  

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Sunday, February 27, 2005

More Than Seven Last Words

The conversation becomes quite different when it becomes general and context-less, as opposed to a conversation about a particular community in a particular time and place, though both are important. I'm remembering my Mennonite church in Buffalo, NY. There were strong community values around simplicity, integrity in an inner-city context, and modesty. There was not much beauty displayed in terms of body or facial adornment, or decoration or art in the church space for that matter. There was a strong focus on living among the poor, doing well with what little money people had, and living out Mennonite values like simplicity and plainness. This way of life made sense in that place, and there was enough consensus that other issues were discussed with much more frequency than the matter of dress.

At Solomon's Porch, it's a quite different context. Many people do have either the discretionary income or credit to play with fashion, and understanding the body, and healing from past church repression and shame, are big issues here. There's more of a premium put on engaging culture than being separate from it. We've also generated a church culture in which creativity and expressiveness are valued - in art, decor, words, music, and the body as well. We need to negotiate the issues, and at times find boundaries, in intimate conversation together. I think we can talk generally about the issue sometimes, but most dialogue will be meaningful and less hurtful if it happens face-to-face, in relationships of love and discernment.

So, I'm glad that we blog about the issue, and think nationally about how we live as Christians. I'm even more glad, though, that on Friday some Porch ladies talked specifically about this shirt, and that skirt, these breasts (Colleen's are lovely) and that belly (Carla's is bountiful and healthy). No one claimed authority to tell other what's moral or immoral - instead, individuals who love each other asked interesting questions, listened to the answers, and agreed to keep living as community, loving each other in spirit, mind, and body.

See you at church tonight. I'll be the pregnant woman in stretch pants and a halter top.

I'm going to move on from this topic now...any final comments?

1 Comments:

  • years ago, young michon asked me why i dressed up for church - i told her that i didn't have many dates, so church was my only chance to look nice.

    now, years later (when i have the boyfriend AND the self-respect to look nice when i feel like it and not when i feel like it is demanded by a dude) - i have new joy in dressing for church for the amusement and confusion of dr. paris. ;)

    By Blogger kp, at 2:55 PM  

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Friday, February 25, 2005

“There are better ways to change a culture than showing your nipples to people you presumably have only met briefly at a conference.”

That sentence is going to be worked into my intro to anthro class somehow.

I don’t think this is a men-weak vs. women-beautiful issue; it’s mostly a cultural issue. Yanamamo men don’t have problems being aroused by breasts in public, because their culture doesn’t define breasts as sexual. Vulvas aren’t sexual either, but vaginas are. Penises may or may not be sexual, depending on what they are doing (intercourse is seen as sexual and private, but public speaking with penis in view would be fine). Our culture defines “sexual body part” in a particular way, and our visual attention and, to some extent, our sexual arousal, are socialized to correspond. Women revealing all or part of their breasts in church know they are being sexual, and may feel heightened sexuality/beauty, even if arousal isn’t part of it for them. Men being weak and needing to strengthen themselves is not the only issue. Public display of female sexuality is sexual, though not always sexy, for both men and women.

Given our cultural context, men could strengthen themselves individually and stop living in bad patterns they’ve been socialized in (Hugo). Men could desexualize breasts and let women do as they please (Brandon). Women could make choices based upon their knowledge of what men are like in our culture (Jav, Jimmy). Or women could defy the culture and do as they please, regardless of what men do (“Marie”).

I think Marie should cover her breasts in this worship setting, and reveal them in contexts in which fellow worshipers understand what she's doing. If she wants to change the culture, she should do so strategically. Showing breasts in this setting would be like civil disobedience, which would come toward the end of a longer culture-change strategy. If she feels so strongly about bras being repressive, then she may have to limit some of her movement through our culture. (I, for example, feel strongly about not having my clothing or head covering or hair regulated by men in churches. This limits my ability to worship in certain churches.) She has defined ‘sexual body part’ in a way that is understood only by a small American subculture of Christians, and she should restrain her freedom for the sake of proper worship in this conference context.

Hugo writes a lot about male responsibility in a sexualized culture. Let’s try a different question, and keep it to the church context for now. KP says, “Just b/c women are inherently more beautiful than men doesn't mean it should be all our burden to figure out how to dress at church.”

Should women hide their beauty in any way because men may be “distracted” or aroused by seeing them? Does this apply only to breasts, or also to bellies, butts, legs, arms, hair, and/or face? (interesting sideline: can I display my body if I know no one finds its shape attractive?) Is women’s beauty a form of power which they are responsible to use wisely?

And secondly, by what processes should we negotiate this issue? Is it a leadership issue, a community issue, an individual issue, or something else?

38 Comments:

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:35 AM  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:40 AM  

  • oh snap. some bullet points from me:

    1. almost a year ago, someone said, in reference to me leading prayer, "how am i supposed to concentrate with an attractive girl up there?" i don't say this to blow my own horn, but to confess that that was the first time i began to feel GUILTY AWARENESS of what i wore in front of church. i didn't like to have to 'worry' about that, so i don't anymore.

    2. however, i do have an orange skirt that has rested in my closet after someone made a sideways comment about it being too short for church. Guilt, and respect for the speaker, leaves it there.

    3. colleen and i read a bunch of different versions of the bible this morning in reference to the whole 'do not cause a brother to stumble' stuff. Some versions led use to interpret that stumbling is to blame on he/she who stumbles, not on the person who 'caused' the stumbling. (ie, the interpreter of the skirt is at fault, not the wearer of the skirt.) If that is true, then does it matter how one holds oneself?

    4. lastly, where is the fine line between being True to One's God-Made Self and looking out for our brothers and sisters in Christ? i don't know.

    By Blogger kp, at 11:43 AM  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:44 AM  

  • Kira here.... I agree with much of what has been said in regards to this issue. I think Jenell hits it right on to bring up the issue of power. Because of how we view the body and sexuality in our society, sexuality does indeed become a power play, especially for women. A woman knows that if she walks through a mall with most of her breasts hanging out of her clothing, she immediately has the power over almost every man who looks her way. I think it's more a woman being weak to consciously play on the sexual response of men to her breasts. Sexuality can be power, and both men and women are responsible to use it wisely.

    It is a cultural issue, and mostly one of respecting one another. Should men be responsible to de-sexualize breasts? I don't think so. Should women have to wear high collars and ankle-lengths in order to not tempt men? I think not. In the example of Marie, to me she seems clearly in the wrong because she's abusing her role as a leader in a spiritual setting to try and force people top accept the liberation of her boobs. To leave the organization in an outrage clearly shows that her focus was more on her breasts than Christ.

    And yes, I think the whole thing applies to other body parts in addition to breasts, because some men find the baring of a woman's tummy just as sexual as her cleavage. We have the responsibility to respect one another, knowing full well the typical responses of the opposite sex to displays of sexuality. OK, enough from me...

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:45 AM  

  • This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:47 AM  

  • Jenell, I've responded at length in my blog. I suspect you and I will disagree a bit, but I am so grateful you presented us with this fscinating topic to play with.

    By Blogger Hugo, at 12:50 PM  

  • I wonder if somewhere in Africa, women are accused of stumbling the men for blatantly wearing a larger than average lip disk. (The nerve!)

    I have spent much of my 20+ years as a christian on the receiving end of various opinions on what I should do with my own breasts. (God given, for the record.) I've been leered at by men and boys, given the stink eye from smaller breasted women, told that it was my responsibility to make sure I they didn't cause a brother to stumble, etc. Sometimes they are not an issue at all (hooray!). The fact is, they're here, they're C's, get used to it.

    On my second trip to Guatemala, I was at breakfast and dropped something down the front of my shirt (occupational hazard). In retrieving said item, I made a comment in which I referred to them as "the girls". Later, I was told by another woman on the trip that my comment was "totally inappropriate" and made her uncomfortable. The funny part of the story is that there was a Guatemalan woman on this person's house building site who CONSTANTLY breast-fed her child. She rarely put her boob back in her shirt when it wasn't in use. No comment of inappropriateness was ever made about her.

    This made me wonder if "working breasts" get more slack than "ornamental" breasts. At Solomon's Porch, it is common to see a woman breast-feeding her child. But God forbid a woman wear a tank top when it's 95 degrees outside.

    In some way I sympathize with Marie. (Although I wear a bra all the time) I consider my dress normal by todays standards, and have decided to wear what I want because someone, somewhere will have an issue with The Girls. What are you going to do?

    Colleen

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:09 PM  

  • I hate to be the party-pooper, but has Marie thought of how her breasts made the other women feel? Women get insecure around other "more attractive" women. It isn't that I don't understand that burden of male weakness is primarily for men to deal with, but how can one maintain community with other females if they are intimidated or insecure in response to her behavior. And for what? why can't she wear a cardigan? Why must an entire congregation deal with her breasts? It seems laden with power-struggle and though I consider myself a feminist, I can't yet see how what she has done has served anybody or any cause.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:29 PM  

  • OK, I deleted Kira's redundant posts - that's what the removals are.

    I appreciate both KP and Colleen, and have heard this expressed by numerous women at church. Why is it that the body is acknowledged and honored more at a bar than in a church? And what is a woman to do with her beautiful breasts? The last anonymous comment makes me sad - that women need to restrain their beauty not only for men's sake, but to reduce other women's jealousy. Ugh.

    I like Colleen's Guatmala example. There's no pastor or theology dictating what we wear at our church. We do speak into each other's lives, however, because we know and love each other. Someone spoke their mind to Colleen (though i don't know what kind of tone or attitude she had), and Colleen considered the comment and thought it through. Even if Colleen continues to wear 'normally' revealing clothes, and referring to her breasts as 'the girls', maybe the other person can at least feel listened to and respected as part of Colleen's spiritual communtiy - not perfect conformity as a group, but real community with diverse views and actions.

    By Blogger Jenell, at 4:55 PM  

  • Shelley here...Let me begin by sayiny that I tend to be pretty modest. I like Jenell's last response. I think we need to take into consideration our community. There are a number of men in our's that are sex addicts.No, it is not my responsibility to control their addiction. I believe though, that I have a responsibilty to consider them, and their situation, as much as my own desires. I give a lot of weight to the idea of "intension" and use it as a reference when contemplating people/situations in my life. "What was Marie's intention?" This helps me form my opinions and decide whether or not it is my place to share that opinion. I like that we have a culture of freedom at church and that includes ourpersonal and diverse choices of clothing. I am also hopful that we are a people who strive to have honest intentions and that these play out in all aspects of our lives together.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:33 PM  

  • I love the fact that community shines through your conversations - the wrestling of issues all in the hopes of strengthening the faith of one another. I live in KC and attend church at Jacob's Well which is very comparable to Solomon's from what I hear.
    It's interesting to hear the different view points from everyone, especially depending on which gender they come from. Thank God that we are made so different in our thinking, as men and women I mean.
    I do believe that we must do our best to control our own impulses and compulsions. But I also believe that we should work hard to help other people. We keep talk about making people stumble...but what about those already stumbling. By that I mean if an alcoholic came to Jacob's Well I'm not going to lead him around carrying a flask of whiskey in my hand - that's just not helping him, especially if he is desperately trying to improve. Yes as men we need to control ourselves but some problems are beyond that. That applies to our condition as humans. The issues is sin and our relationship to Christ. We need to strive to help each other keep that community, and we sacrifice our own freedoms for others. Now did your worship leader perhaps make a mistake and make someone stumble? or hurt someone that's already stumbling? perhaps, and we all make mistakes...the important thing is we are now learning and having conversations - and will we change? hopefully.

    I guess I will always feel it's our responsibility to look out for the younger and weaker...and just because you're younger doesn't mean your weaker, and vice versa. I don't believe God leads people through their compulsions - that looks too demonic. I guess I feel we need to think about our actions and how they are leading others in their actions. With this issue...women's bodies are obviously a temptation for men - God made it that way so a man's wife is ultimately attractive and desirable to him, which she in turn desires to feel from him as well. But they shouldn't use that power to gain power over others. That's leading them through compulsions, desires, and basically sin. And then as women you need to ask yourself - are they following me for my soul or my breasts? hopefully you wouldn't desire to have power because of fat cells in your chest. Men do the same things through other facets. We need to be responsible for leading people through actions that god uses, not satan. There are so many good issues here - and I do believe God loves the fact that we engage in figuring out the truth. I have a sincere feeling that if Christ was in this situation he would have something very profound to say - probably completely about something else that's going on...because we are so typically focused on the wrong thing. And I sometimes also feel that the underlying question with these kind of issues is: do I care more about my brother and sister or my own freedom - or am I more interested in my own agenda (changing culture maybe) or christ's...I think with these kinds of delicate issues...we should have an idea what God is wanting and not only what we want.

    By Blogger andebos, at 11:27 PM  

  • Paris (believe that's your name)

    This is kind of a tangent from the subject but I have slightly considered moving to MN next year to teach elementary school. I want to go somewhere with a good church community and I have heard lots of good things about Solomon's porch. Are there any good community areas in the St. Paul Minneap. area that you would recommend? Either suburbs, communities, parts of town etc?

    By Blogger andebos, at 12:03 AM  

  • i'll weigh in.
    i think that the branch of the family tree with roots in evangelicalism and fundamentalism(a word i hear no one will claim in minnesota despite matching up perfectly, but that's another post) has as part of its history a tradition of heavily burdening women with bearing responsibility for various aspects of male sexuality. women have (and continue) to receive encouragement to "not cause men to stumble" while men are rarely (if ever) as adamantly encouraged to deal with their sometimes all pervasive objectification of women. the church as we so often know it still holds women responsible for the sexual urges of men; the idea that a woman holds power over a man who could easily overpower her if he chose simply because she had cleavage still gets airtime. and a few warnings attached. to the woman. we are also taught that male sexuality is so powerful that once activated is beyond control--another nice idea that firmly posits any change in behavior or accomodation straight in the woman's camp. i agree it's not nice to rub boobies in sex addicts faces (so to speak), but the issue primarily lies for the sex addict. it would be better to keep the pressure there than to suggest to young women that men are powerless in their company. (and if they are, church really isn't a safe place for anybody) it would also help if we were equally reflective with men about how their objectification of women creates an environment where learning how to be on guard and tenative is required. if that got even half the discussion time as women's clothing has received, we'd all be in better shape.

    i think it's a mistake to suppose that the freedom to sport renegade sexuality (a phenomenon that's a more realistic option where people haven't been discussing the evils of premarital sex) is exactly the same as the occasional display of flesh at church. we're playing under very old rules. maybe if some of our worship styles weren't so orgasmic to start (jesus is my boyfriend/lover/all i want is more of you! more, jesus, more!), marie's titties wouldn't be quite as serious a problem.

    okay, i'm too tired to reread this, so let's hope that makes sense.

    By Blogger jen lemen, at 12:27 AM  

  • For me sexual imorality, was instilled in me, when taught I evolved from animals. This being the only good thing that came from my destroyed faith, (so I thought at the time)http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0225von_Zieten.asp

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:03 AM  

  • Thanks, Jenell. I think I'll have to share some thoughts on this on my blog, what an interesting topic.

    By Blogger Brandon, at 1:44 PM  

  • I am a Gnostic Christian, which 96% of the early Christian church was up until the Council Of Nicea in 325 AD, and from what little of the written historical record survives, nudity and even more at times was reasonably common the Early Christian Church up until the CON.

    That said, everything is about context and perception, and I agree with you, J, that modest dress by either gender is a cultural requirement in this society in order to establish and maintain credibility to lead worship services of any faith.

    Not meaning to be flippant, but outside of a nudist colony or swingers' club, appropriate non-nipple or more showing dress should be mandated both by common sense and the respective congregation.

    By Anonymous H. Kent Craig, at 3:06 AM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:32 PM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:32 PM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:32 PM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:32 PM  

  • OH MY WORD.

    Can someone please talk about the role of self-control--a God-given fruit! When some man--or even woman--says they can't concentrate because the OTHER person is so attractive, then I think that SOME person should pracice self-control. Why blame other people? It's something God expects us to use--it's a fruit of the spirit! Given to us in abundance and its our responsibility to culitvate it. People need to take responsibility for themselves before they expect the world to change for them.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:33 PM  

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  • "I, for example, feel strongly about not having my clothing or head covering or hair regulated by men in churches."

    It's not supposed to be the men who regulate the women. It's supposed to be the women, taught by the older Christian women, who regulate the women.
    The church is an autocracy, the autocrat being Jesus Christ. Elders and deacons are supposed to only be administrators and servants of the church, carrying out the commands of Christ in daily affairs.
    Something is wrong when elders are constrained to speak to women personally in correction. Either the older women are not carrying out their responsibility to teach and guide the younger women or the younger women (it's usually a young woman who is the object of concern, but sometimes an older one is) are being unruly.
    A woman is supposed to be in submission to her own husband, not as a groveling slavey but as an aide (fit help = help meet in the KJV) or assisting partner to him. If she is not married she should be in submission to her own father (or male head of household if her father is not present). Only indirectly, as are all members of the congregation, is she to be in obedience to the leadership of the church, who are charged with the cure of souls.

    Does the Bible say a (Christian) woman is to cover her head when she prays or "prophesies" in the (meeting of the) church? What is "prophesying?" "Pro + phecy" is "speaking for" or "on behalf of" another. Thus the Christian woman is to be "veiled" when she is "praying" or "prophesying" IN THE CHURCH (sorry, no underline or italic available). Today "prophesying" is "speaking on behalf of [God, or Jesus]." Such as reading the Bible.
    In the early church women were commonly readers. The entire meeting was conducted as if in prayer, with due solemnity.
    Christian women, then, are free to go unveiled outside the church (meeting), though they are also free to wear one at all times.

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Thursday, February 24, 2005

Only Fools Rush In

KP raised, and then dropped, a great discussion of propriety and clothing at church. At the risk of offending all my friends, I'll pick it up.

I come from a harshly judging background with respect to clothing. We dressed to display our parents' wealth, and to be beautiful. Our parents taught us to judge girls for wearing pants to church (never wore shorts), boys for wearing hats or tennis shoes, sloppiness, casualness, and for owning something like brand new Guess jeans from Dayton's that couldn't even have been on sale yet. Inappropriate casualness offends a formal and awesome God, and shopping full-price is ostentatious, also a sin. Sexiness or tightness of clothes were never an issue because we were all totally sexually repressed. (I wish some of this judgmental energy had been directed at our pedophile pastor, where it could have actually done some good).

I now believe that understandings of dress are entirely cultural - that is, created and shared among groups of people. So, for the Venezuelan Yanamamo, you're "dressed" if you have a cotton thread tied around your waist, and are otherwise unclothed. Unclothed women are modest if their legs are more-or-less together - can't sit cross-legged in mixed company. They expect anthropologists to follow the customs of the anthropologist's home culture. If an anthropologist tries to wear a string, the people laugh and laugh.

I'll write a bit more about my perspective tomorrow, but I want to see what you think of this case study. This really happened, in an organization I'm part of, at an event I didn't attend. Names have been changed.

Fifty people have come together for worship, from around the country, from different Christian traditions, though the organization is presumably evangelical. Marie leads worship. She is a Liberated West Coast Feminist Environmental Democratic Hemp-Wearing Christian. She is in front of the group, arms raised, eyes closed, praising Jesus. She wears a light white t-shirt with no bra. Her bobbling breasts and nipples were reportedly more interesting than Jesus. Debby took her aside and said that she needed to wear a bra with this group, especially when leading worship. Marie said, "I'm liberated, and Jesus loves me the way I am. I love my body, and I won't allow you to bind my breasts!" She left the event, and reportedly the organization, furious.

What do you think? Was Marie's dress inappropriate? Was Debby's confrontation inappropriate? Should the people have been able to worship even in the bold presence of Marie's boobs?

99 Comments:

  • Boobs throw me way off. Can't focus. Cover the boobs for Jesus. But really, there is a reason for the saying, when in Rome do as the Romans do. To bring offense to everyone of that culture is to lose the ability to communicate with them. Not a good thing if communication is one of the only ways we can attempt to foster a relationship between two different cultural parties.

    By Blogger Jimmy, at 12:59 PM  

  • LOL! Ah, Jimmy--I love his honesty. (What IS the big deal? I will never understand). Anyway, I think it goes to both--Marie should be willing to listen to the group while the group should be open to looking at their standards and evaluating them. Or maybe just turn the thermostat down and she'd have to put on a sweater.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:34 PM  

  • Well, I do have an opinion. I think that the boobs should stay. I know the 'when in Rome' argument, but the truth is, sometimes the Romans are wrong...and when they are, they're wrong no matter what country we're in.

    BUT, I see the other side of the argument too. If the boobs are okay, then where's the line. How's about topless? Totally naked-coed worship? Frankly, having practiced nudism before, I have no theological problem as such, with this.

    I think maybe, Jenell, adhering to the cultural standards from which you find your identity may be the best. Accepting differences in those standards NEEDS to be a part of a truly 'multicultural' church (even if that multicultural refers to groups of poeple not seperated by geographical distance.)

    Thus, the beautifully boobed woman was behaving appropriately according to the cultural tradition in which she found her identity. To me, and this is just opinion, to conceal the boobs isn't just a bad idea, it's sinful.

    By Blogger Brandon, at 3:12 PM  

  • Hats are an interesting issue- I love my hat and only take it off in church because I know someone will be offended. I doubt they know why they're offended. The tradition of a man removing his hat carries as much weight to me as that of a woman having her head covered. But it's easier to take the hat off for a bit than to rationally discuss fine theological details...

    Other than that, I do wish women were more aware of the effect their clothing can have on men. Yes, I know that I am responsible for my own eyes and thoughts. But it would be nice if a church gathering were generally 'safe' rather than a place of temptation.

    By Blogger Ben, at 3:14 PM  

  • yahoo! thanks for taking this up, Jenell. Colleen and I were spitting all over each other yesterday morning, still talking about the same topic.

    Personally, I think to go without a bra (in white, no less!) in front of people is stupid and somewhat disrespectful. but then again, where's the line?

    Ben (commenter before me) offered a peak into the can of worms I think this discussion really is: the "scariness" of women as sexual beings in church. (Can the 2 be separated? No! Just b/c women are inherently more beautiful than men doesn't mean it should be all our burden to figure out how to dress at church. Should j. bormes cover his face at church? it's pretty hot. that would be ridiculous - likewise, i will wear tanktops in the summer.)

    No offense, Ben - I hope none came across. I just jumped off your comment and kept going...

    By Blogger kp, at 3:49 PM  

  • If Debby told her she "needed" to wear a bra, that might have been a bit tactless. A gentler approach, pointing out that others were distracted might have been better -- and perhaps allow Marie to pick her own solution.

    I don't like dress codes that are externally enforced. But I do think we can exhort folks to take responsibility for how their clothing choices affect others, particularly if we our ostentatiousness or our sexuality or our flamboyance makes others uncomfortable. But if folks choose to interpret that exhortation differently, then we just have to leave it lay where it is (as I was taught to say.)

    By Blogger Hugo, at 3:52 PM  

  • As the brothas that I work with say...'let's keep it real'....

    I don't know any heterosexual man whose head doesn't turn when they see nipples.
    They are like kryptonite to men.
    A man could be having a conversation with Billy Graham, the Pope, and the Dalai Lama about celibacy and some nipples followed by a woman walk by and the man will forget all that was being discussed. No telling what the 3 other guys would do...

    As far as the situation you mention...
    I think that for Marie not to understand the culture she is a part of is just as bad as Debbie not understanding there were was a potential cultural change.

    There are better ways to change a culture than showing your nipples to people you presumably have only met briefly at a conferece.

    By Blogger Javier, at 4:20 PM  

  • To throw my bra in the ring :) I think wearing a bra, in this context would be a good thing. But I really think it depends on her intentions. If her intent is to reach these people at the conference, then as any good anthropologist would note, you have to meet people where they are at. Otherwise, you are going to so offend them that they will not be able to hear your words because they are looking at your nipples. However, if your intention is to do your own thang in the Lord, then praising him sans bra is the way to go for her. Notwithstanding, as Dave Chappelle has noted, sometimes "keepin' it real" can go wrong.
    -Andrea
    P.S. Jenell, I finally meet Marla and I think I will be a volunteer at a conference she is doing about AFAM religion.

    By Anonymous Andrea, at 4:51 PM  

  • carla here. I have a dear friend who is a big name writer and I can tell you that whenever people who know her talk about her, it always comes around to the fact that she doesn't wear undergarments--something that is occasionally obvious. I don't think that's what she wants to be known for.
    I think it's arrogant of Marie to dress with seemingly little concern for the impact on other people. There is a fine line between being yourself/expressing yourself and being offensive. And yes, it might be the other person's problem if they are offended (or turned on), but part of being in relationship with others is to take their thoughts and feelings into consideration.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:08 PM  

  • Your entry was very interesting - it reminds me of a high school sunday at church. During sunday school many years ago we were discussing C.S. Lewis. A friend of mine, fairly well endowed in the upper region, was making a point...we all listened attentively - trying not to notice her breasts just about falling out of her low cut shirt, all except our 40 year old sunday school teacher. After she finished he just stared at her chest kinda homer simpson like...then he put his hand out in the air covering her breasts from his sight...slowly looked up to her eyes and said, "could you repeat that? I wasn't paying attention to a thing you said." Obviously embarrassed he immediately added - if you want to dress like that in this culture then expect to be treated with the same lack of dignity. Show me your boobs and that's what i'll value you on...show me your brain and the same holds true. That was always a hilarious but thoughtful lesson for all of us, women and men alike. As far as this situation. Well yes God intended us to enjoy our bodies and be proud of them. But not if we know its a hindrance to the faith of another - if boobs don't bother anyone, flaunt em - if they hinder your faith cover em up. The same applies all kinds of grey issues (ex. use of alcohol) I feel like the real issue here is one of pride. Was she more consumed in her own rights, freedoms, and self - or was she genuinely interested in Christ's love and desires. It's an interesting argument...I mean, I never heard of Jesus preaching with his penis hanging out - sure that would've caused some problems too. Just not sure that was the right place for her actions. Another culture maybe, but we know this one and we need to be all things to all people in the effort to win a few. On the other side us men need to do a better job focusing typically so a challenge is a good thing - and its tough being a woman to pick out material that is beautiful and appropriate in this day and age. Regardless, I'd probably leave during her talk. If she really cared about what she was saying - she would have tried to sell me on that, not sell me on her boobs. Or maybe what she had to say wasn't really important so in an effort to still have people like her she figured why not! my speech sucks but at least I got these for them to have some fun with until I'm done babbling.

    By Blogger andebos, at 6:14 PM  

  • Tyler, wow. If any youth leader I work with now pulled what your Sunday School teacher did, I'd be in his face lickety-split. That just seems incredibly demeaning.

    It is not a man's job to police women's attire. (It is that of other women, I think.)

    Our job is to disciple ourselves. When confronted with temptation, I don't grow spiritually if I blame my sister for flaunting her body (knowingly or not). I only grow when I accept responsibility for my eyes and my thoughts. I can notice, look for three seconds, and then if I keep on looking, that's all on "me" not on "her."

    A lot of this conversation seems to revolve around a "myth of male weakness" that I find troubling. We are stronger than we realize.

    I think I have something to post about at my own place sometime soon.

    By Blogger Hugo, at 6:26 PM  

  • On the same note I was wondering your opinion on what us men do to distract the body as well? by that I mean is there something similar, but gender opposite, that men do to affect men and women from genuine worship? it's an interesting question - I'll give kudos to your worship leader too for practicing her freedom...and it gives her and everyone chances at forgiveness and real community - I mean what kind of christians would we be if we didn't annoy each other most of, if not all, the time?

    By Blogger andebos, at 6:26 PM  

  • I'm just some guy who was directed here by KP (what up, KP), but my two cents are:
    1) Breasts in church. Well, I'm both male and weak, and if I get distracted by them, I get distracted by them, but that would be something I would want to clearly mark under the category of "my own damn problem." Men need to have the kindness to assume that women who dress in seemingly "provocative" ways are not doing so to provoke and are not inviting stares, objectification or admonishment.

    Presumably women have a matching responsibility, which probably involves thinking about the likely effect of what they're wearing on us neanderthals (as well as on other women for that matter)--but, unlike Tertullian, I think that's a task best left to well-intentioned and discerning women.

    By Blogger Phil, at 8:25 PM  

  • And absolutely no offense taken kp (KP? kP?)- I come from a background of sexual addiction and I know my hang-ups are not universal. I think there are actually a few men out there that are not so sexually oriented that they can relate to any given woman as a person, without any sexual undertone. But if they're American and straight, I'd have my doubts.

    I would not ever want to do anything that caused a woman to be uncomfortable with herself, either. I know that's a big struggle for a lot of women. If I encountered 'Marie' in her home church, I think it would be my responsibility to leave if I couldn't handle the way she was attired. But if she were, as in Jenell's example, gathering with a diverse group, my opinion is that she should give consideration to a weaker brother or sister.

    And let me balance that as well- Romans 14 talks about the weak and the strong, and about not causing another to stumble. But buried in that passage is a short verse- :16, "Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil." Which to me means, if God has told you something is good, don't let anybody take it away from you. Which doesn't mean you flaunt it in their face, quite the opposite if it will cause them to stumble, but for you, it is a good, God-given thing.

    By Blogger Ben, at 8:49 AM  

  • Here is the transcript from a recent church staff meeting....

    Staff: "Pastor Jimmy good to see you back, we missed you in the office the other day. We heard that you had to take Katie to the doctor.... is everything OK?"
    Me: "Oh yeah she's fine. We were at the plastic surgeon's office. She had a boob job. She's recovering nicely."
    Staff: Awkward silence.
    Me: "You should see 'em, they're awesome. She's like a "D" now. They're perfect."
    Staff: More silence. Even more awkward.
    Me: Slow on the uptake, just starting to notice the wierdness, getting nervous, should probably shut up. "Like I said, you should see 'em. She'll show you if you want."
    Staff: Stunned silence, mouths agape.

    Here's the deal people. They're just boobs. Half the population has them, deal with it. Boobs have the sexual power that you give them. Men, control your mind. Take responsibility for your own actions. Stop shifting liability. Don't blame one of God's most beautiful creations for your thought life. Get it under control.

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Wednesday, February 23, 2005

Some opportunities

Are you going to the Nashville Emergent Convention? Jay Voorhees is organizing a spiritual retreat there that sounds great. Info at www.embracingchurch.com.

Need money? I take surveys online on products, and I think I've made about $10 in a year. I do about one a month. Tell me your e-mail (e-mail me or put in comments), and I'll put you on my referral list. The company is NFO or something like that.

The new Anne Lamott book is out. I spend money on new, hardcover books about once a year, and I bought two of these. I'm eager to read it. I'm worried, however, that she's going to add in political/social/anti-Bush rants, and I don't think that's really her creative zone. The book should be mostly about faith, though, and I expect to love it.

5 Comments:

  • Hey Jenell,
    I just got my plane ticket the other day for Nashville. They are dirt cheap right now, only $188. I am really excited go this year. Are you planning on going?

    By Anonymous jbradley, at 12:49 PM  

  • hey, i'll do a survey now and then. i think you know my email...

    By Blogger pete, at 2:50 PM  

  • I can't go to the Nashville deal. I'll look forward to hearing about it, tho.

    By Blogger Jenell, at 3:35 PM  

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Tuesday, February 22, 2005

Assorted facts and a book review

Facts
1. I threw up in my hands this morning, and then ate a Ho Ho to feel better. It worked.
2. The cats are using too much litter.
3. I need to buy some toilet paper and eyeglass cleaner.
4. A publisher sent me an Intro to Anthropology text for consideration, and I think it might be over my head.
5. My dh (dear husband) came home last night from Seattle. I didn't tell any of you cyberfreaks that he was out of town, because I was afraid you'd come over here, physically overpower me, and steal my pets.

Book Review: The Seeker's Way: Cultivating the Longing of a Spiritual Life by Dave Fleming

I had Leadership Wisdom in Unlikely Places, Dave's last book, and didn't review it because I just really didn't like it. I'm much more ambivalent about The Seeker's Way. It explores the nature of spiritual searching, and has some fabulous soundbites that I've mused about. The spiritual search moves us from answers to experience, from activity to meaing, from performance to expression, from segregation to community. Those are helpful ways of describing what the deeper spiritual life is like.

Fleming is a Christian - I think he used to be a pastor - but the book is written to appeal to anyone who is searching spiritually. In each chapter he interviews someone about their search - one guy is Christian and Buddhist, but most of them are straightforward Christians (Joan Chittister, Lauren Winner, and others). The book also seems to praise the search itself more than the God who may be found in the search. Fleming is resisting the idea that we seek God, then find God, and then we're done. He goes so far in the other direction, however, that the spiritual life seems like one long search, and the search is the prize. And, being pregnant at the moment, I see clearly that sometimes the journey is not the point - the journey should end, and the destination should be reached.

I think I'm just not Fleming's market. I looked at his website, and it looks to me like he was a pastor, and now he does broad speaking and leadership training beyond the church, but with a spiritual sensibility. I hope this, and the book, finds fertile ground for the Gospel at appropriate times (or maybe that's not what he's doing - I don't know him at all).

One of my favorite things about postmodernism, at least in academics, is the destruction of objectivity. One of my gay non-Christian profs said, "I'm gay, and the rest of you have to come out, too. And if, God forbid, you're a fundamentalist or a Baptist, you can come out, too!" So we all had 'coming out' announcements, and from there on out, we spoke and interpreted the world from our own positionalities. No one but the other 3 Christians ever resonated with my explicitly Christian ideas (and most of the time, I could communicate without making it explicit and exclusionary), but I felt respected and free to be myself. So, I would rather read a spiritual seeking book by a committed Buddhist or a committed Jew, and could learn from that as a Christian, than to read a Christian hedging his own positionality and claiming to speak with neutrality about spirituality in general.

6 Comments:

  • Well,if that last paragraph doesn't deserve a hearty "Amen, sister Jenell, do have another Ho-Ho", I don't know what does.

    By Blogger Hugo, at 11:10 AM  

  • Why are the cats using too much litter, and how did you come to this conclusion?

    Kira Campbell

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:19 AM  

  • Kira,
    Their water is next to my desk, and I think they drink more when I'm in here. They also drink more in the winter b/c the air is dry. And, when it's nice out, Ruby goes outside and doesn't use the litter box at all. And then I wonder whether one of them has diabetes or a UTI or something horrible, but I don't think I really need to explore that venue.

    I also switched to Tidy Cats instead of Fresh Step, and I think the granules are smaller, and soak in more and get used up faster.

    If anyone but Kira reads this comment, I'd have to wonder whether or not you have anything else to do today!

    By Blogger Jenell, at 11:31 AM  

  • But what does Dave Fleming think about the cats using too much litter?

    I met Dave in San Diego (well, I actually got to know his buddies from Area 215 better) and he's an interesting guy. I have the new book but haven't read it. One criticism I have of Leadership from Unlikely Voices is that the voices weren't all that unlikely for anyone who knew the church has been around longer than Pat Robertson.

    Still, I'm more in tune with the endless journey motif than you are. Than again, I'm a Myers-Briggs P and not a pregnant female ;)

    By Anonymous dave paisley, at 1:20 AM  

  • Jenell and all,

    We only have a dog at my house. Cats scare me. I always get the feeling they know something I don't (about me, that is). I'm not sure where this fear originates. Perhpas its simply a fear based on a lack of understanding. I've never really taken the time discover the primal nature of cats. And, I probably won't get the chance. We have asthma in our house.

    First, thanks for reading the book. I'm honored you'd open it.

    It's always interesting to listen to others critique my work; to see how my thoughts--specifically in my books--come accross to others. The interesting piece in your review was the "hedging" comment. I'm genuinely curious where you felt me hedge because I tried so hard to do the very opposite--to simply write out of my experience without pretense.

    And to Paisley's comment about unlikely voices: yes, that is the tragedy of it all. Too many leaders today would make no connection whatsoever between leadership and the people I explore in the book.

    thanks again,

    live the mystery


    Dave Fleming

    By Blogger kairosguy (dave), at 8:13 AM  

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Friday, February 18, 2005

Name-Stealer!!

I have seen the drama played out between suburban moms numerous times. You're three months pregnant, and your friend is five. You say, "I'm thinking about 'Hunter' if it's a boy and 'Micaela' if it's a girl." She gives birth eight weeks before you and names her kid Hunter! Now you can't use it, because the name is already used, and she's a rotten name-stealer.

It turns out that Javier is a name-stealer! He and Sarah have a bunny, and they named it Ruby! Sarah, fortunately, had the decency to mention it to me while Ruby (my Ruby, the real one) was out of the room, so her feelings won't be hurt.

I just didn't know Javier was that kind of a person. I was thinking about telling people at church the names of our twins before they were born, but now I think I can't. He'll probably make Sarah have another baby super-fast, before mine, and name them whatever I was thinking of. Or he'll buy a ferret or a pot-belly pig and use my names, so I can't. I'll probably wind up using unusual names like Hazel and Phinneaus, Mary-Kate and Ashley, or Rod and Todd, just to allow my kids some individuality.

The consolation is that my Ruby doesn't have any friends and doesn't like any other animals, so the chance of her running into Ruby the rabbit at a play-group or Camp Snoopy is pretty slim.

Have any of your so-called friends stolen anything from you?

10 Comments:

  • Oh how I love you!

    We decided to forgo the whole thing by giving our daughter the most popular name in the country and giving our son a Christian standard. No one can steal them (or claim they are stolen) because they are clearly in the public domain.

    Baby Sally remains nameless ex utero, mainly because all the names we like are already in use by people we like--Lydia, Olivia, Grace, etc. We think we have a boy name that isn't Duncan, but I'm not telling you--or Javier--what it is. carla

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:42 AM  

  • Oddly enough, one of my wife's former hallmates from her freshman year at Bethel and her husband, one of my former classmates at seminary, chose the name Eliot (spelled the same way as our son) for their son. In a fluke of medical wonder, though, we were forced to have our son six weeks early, and therefore took back the rights to the name that was rightfully ours from the beginning. Huzzah!

    By Blogger pete, at 12:25 PM  

  • Sure we'll share some names. Abdullah Rackma. Judas Merle, Ludlow Cladstrup, Crispy Denz. . . But hey, don't go stealin' them and for sure, don't go tellin' Javier our line of thinkin.'

    By Blogger Jimmy, at 6:29 PM  

  • Jimmy stole "Crapinator" from me. Which I originally called Mr. Fuzzy Balls in my Jan 24th blog, after he crapped on my bed. But I think all know, Al is the real Crapinator, so he is welcome to that prestigious title. "All Hail King Al Crapinator!" Mr Fuzzy Balls can be on his royal court.

    By Blogger Brooke, at 1:17 PM  

  • Oh, but I like "stealing" names. Matilde would like everyone to feel free, indeed encouraged, to name their small ones after her.

    By Blogger Hugo, at 1:35 PM  

  • Hugo, your post reveals just how much you are not, and never will be, a white midwestern suburban mom.

    By Blogger Jenell, at 2:30 PM  

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    These are difficult days for old classic names. And those who have them.

    By Blogger Tom, at 4:51 PM  

  • you gotta really come out of left field and, like the English Puritans of the 15th Century, name your children after Christian virtues: Charity, Faith, Joy, Constancy, Forgiveness, Good Manners, Temperance, Poverty. That should be a pretty good list of names that I doubt ANYONE would steal from you.

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Tuesday, February 15, 2005

Confessions

Valentine's day? We went to the zoo, and then watched the Kinsey documentary. We're all just animals, according to him, though the animals seemed to show no particular interest in sex just b/c it was Valentine's Day. My favorite? The puma sleeping on a rock, laying on her back with paws drawn up like a kitten. Weirdest? Those weird little monkeys with long white moustaches. I thought, "We can ask God, 'why do people suffer?' 'why is there evil?" But we could also ask, 'Why did you make animals like that?'" The answer is equally inscrutible.

I don't know whether it's a sin or not, but I feel bad about this. I was holding a scissors, and Opal was sitting on my lap, and remember, I'm at home alone alot. Some of her fur is white, and some of it is tabby-colored on the tips and orange underneath. I cut some of the tips off so I could see what she'd look like orange and white. Now she looks a bit shorn on her back, and it makes me feel like I bullied and abused her. (She didn't notice I was cutting it, and hasn't shown signs of realizing it even yet). I feel bad about myself when I look at her. It might feel good to take advantage of a weaker being in the moment, but then you feel bad later.

Any confessions from you today?

4 Comments:

  • True confession, Jenell:

    Thanks to a roast beef sub from Quiznos on Sunday (at confirmation class) I fell off the vegetarian/vegan bandwagon this past weekend. With panache. I'm back on, but humbled by my weakness!

    By Blogger Hugo, at 11:26 AM  

  • I slept in for two hours. It felt pretty good.

    By Blogger RahX, at 12:53 PM  

  • I just up and left work for an extended period of time and went home and ate leftovers from the fridge and sat on my couch and tried on a new dress.

    But I came back. So I think that says something. Though now I'm reading your blog on the clock, so I guess it doesn't say much.

    By Blogger Kate, at 4:33 PM  

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    By Blogger pete, at 9:36 AM  

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Monday, February 14, 2005

Book review: The Sacred Way: Spiritual Practices for Everyday Life by Tony Jones

Doug has been feeding me Zondervan books to review, which is delightful. I'm eager to get on to the next two. Today's is The Sacred Way. It's a pretty hard book to criticize, because Tony says that his children's education depends upon sales of this book, and because he quotes Kathleen Norris frequently. Either he or someone else went to the effort of balancing gender in back cover blurbs, and Tony obviously reads voraciously, men and women, present and past, and this was wonderful.

He wrote the book while on sabbatical and traveling around Europe. He writes vignettes from his travels at the beginning of each chapter. Each chapter covers a different spiritual practice - labyrinth, daily office, centering prayer, service, sabbath, etc. For each one, he discusses theology, history, and practice. I mostly skipped theology and history, and read about practice.

Tony goes to my church, but I don't know him very well yet. When I get a chance to talk with him, these are some of the questions I'll ask:

1. You have a comfortable, non-judgmental, intelligent pastoral voice in your writing. How will exposure to graduate school affect your voice? When Tony gets going on his blog about grad school stuff, it's a fearsome read. How will the "my words are bigger than your words" genre affect what seems to be his more natural tone? Will he become 'bilingual,' speaking different ways in different audiences, or insist on speaking plainly in academe, or academize his popular voice? I wonder.

2. Do you have as many complicated problems with Christianity as everyone else in emergent? Other emergent books have stirred me up and raised disturbing questions about what I've always thought to be true. Most of the time I enjoy this, and am growing because of it, but sometimes I long for comfort. The Sacred Way reflects a deep familiarity and love of Christian tradition, moving between places and times to find ways to seek God. Tony comes across as someone who loves Jesus and pursues Him, and in this book at least, doesn't complicate the basic Christian path with postmodern questions. The book is postmodern in approach and content, but no so much in terms of philosophical questions. It made me feel safe, and I liked that.

3. Have you ever seen Protestants successfully develop a rule? Tony encourages people to develop their own "rules" of spiritual practice, and to pursue them with their communities. This part made me sad. I don't want to develop my own spiritual rule, and I'm not even sure whether it's legitimate to call it a 'rule' if it's individualized. I appreciated Tony's encouragement to reflect on and be intentional about spiritual practice, but I was sad that I'm an American Protestant, and pursue most of my spiritual practices on my own. I appreciate our corporate practices as a church, especially Lent (I'm paying attention to Lent this year and encouraging others, even though I'm not practicing), and I know friends would support me if I decided to pick up a new practice. I just can't imagine living as part of a rule-based community. I did so when I lived in an inner-city women's community house, and it was fantastic, but it was a very counter-cultural and unusual way to live and I haven't encountered it elsewhere.

4. I read all of Tony's 'journal' vignettes about his experiences in Europe, and then went back to the beginning and read the chapters on spiritual practices. I would like to read a whole book about his spiritual experiences and journey - sabbatical and daily life. He alludes to challenges managing travel, education and family, ways in which he is intentional in marriage, things that are frustrating about travel. I'd love to read about how all of this, and his grad school/philosophical quest also, and spiritual practices, fits into a whole life. Not to be nosy or anything, but I'm interested.

I have some other thoughts about the book cover, fonts, and the like, but I've written enough for today.

Update: Tony kindly answered my questions in the comments!

3 Comments:

  • JP: Thanks for the kind words and for noticing my proclivity toward female voices in spirituality. In fact, I had to force myself to get a male endorsement on the back. Quick responses:

    1) I hope that I am multi-lingual: PhD seminars, blogs, youth ministry conventions, church consultations, spirituality books, and my kids' bedrooms all call for different voices (my wife, Julie, readily reminds me when I used one in an inappropriate setting). I pray that I use each with integrity.

    2) I have enormous intellectual and spiritual quandaries about the Christian faith. I am sure that I will write (and I do often speak) about these problems, many of which are at the philosophical/theological level. But none of them (yet?) precludes me from practicing a life of faith that includes heartfelt prayer to a God whom I struggle to know.

    3) The only Protestants I know of who practice the kind of communal rule that you and I both desire are ultimately sectarian: the Amish, the Bruderhof, and the "New Monastic Communities" that are currently being launched. I do think it would be possible, however, at a place like SP to develop a rule without sectarianism.

    4) That's a good idea for the next book!

    5) I look forward to your thoughts on the cover and interior design, etc. You may have heard that it is currently being reprinted to correct some of the layout and typo mistakes, plus it will be on sturdier and whiter paper.

    Thanks again for the kind words!

    T

    By Blogger tony, at 9:57 AM  

  • You wrote: "I mostly skipped theology and history, and read about practice."

    I am curious as to why? Is it because you have a knowledge of the two? I am assuming as a student and or teacher of culture you have an appreciation for the context and culture in which certain spiritual disciplines developed. That really stuck out to me.

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Saturday, February 12, 2005

First Lines of the Books I'm Reading Right Now

"It was 7 minutes after midnight." (Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time)

"I wrote a lot of this book in coffee shops." (Tony Jones, The Sacred Way)

"I was 23 when I met my future husband, who was then 55." (A Time to Mourn: One Woman's Journey Through Widowhood)

"I was working in an abortion clinic when I found out I was pregnant." (Past Due: A Story of Disability, Pregnancy and Birth)

"Every one of us felt some pain as a child." (Legacy of the Heart: The Spiritual Advantages of a Painful Childhood)

What's the first line of the book you haven't yet written?

6 Comments:

  • "It has been said that I have no platform because I have nothing to say nor credentials of which to speak, yet to this I say, 'morons move over, I will no longer be silent.' "

    By Blogger Jimmy, at 12:48 PM  

  • For the longest time she thought she understood what happened that day when the kind blue sky fell in pieces all around her.

    By Blogger jen lemen, at 5:09 PM  

  • Jesus could noty have meant what he said.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:56 PM  

  • "In spite of previous reports to the contrary, the sash pulley was actually only rated for windows weighing less than forty pounds."

    By Blogger pete, at 7:41 PM  

  • A curious dog is a great book which im in the middle of right now... what a wonderful book... im interested to hear how you like it.

    By Blogger Reid Bradley, at 3:36 AM  

  • Don't have the first line, will you settle for a title? The Grace Driven Life

    By Blogger Ben, at 1:37 PM  

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Thursday, February 10, 2005

I finished Through the Narrow Gate (reprint edition) last night. Karen Armstrong entered a convent at age 17, and left at age 23, in 1969. She left faith and God and Christiantiy altogether during the 1970s, and refound an interest in spirituality, though not orthodox Catholicism, in the 1980s and now writes books like A History of God.

Her novitiate training was pre-Vatican II, and girls were trained to be nuns in a 19th century British Victorian style. The main idea was, like the miliary, to completely debase oneself and die to oneself so that one may be entirely obedient to God (unlike the military). Karen's most difficult challenge was eating cheese. She threw up every time she ate cheese, sometimes 4-7 times a week. Over time, it seemed to lead to a nervous disorder, so she was fainting and developing anorexia-like aversions to all food. The nuns said this was her special spiritual challenge, so when cheese is served, she should eat two helpings in order to discipline the body. She did this for six years, and her body never submitted to lactose.

I reflected on my situation, and what the nuns would say to me. Really, they wouldn't say anything, because at that time and in this particular order, they didn't speak to seculars. But if they did, they would say, or bark, that I ought to never speak of my complaints, and should use them all as spiritual disciplines. My upbringing in 1970s-80s positive self-esteem secular America, of course, suggests the opposite. Express your feelings, explore them, learn from your body, etc. All that submission to authority and denigration of the body and feelings seems harsh and wrong.

I am challenged, however, to seek God in every situation. I am challenged to serve God and others in some way, regardless of my own suffering. I don't think I can put it into words, but I believe the nuns had something right - my feelings and emotions are not the measure of all things. I am not entirely free, and I may be transformed in submission to God and his church. I don't see much progress, but I would like to be content in my own existence, regardless of my usefulness. I would like to bear physical discomfort with more grace. I would like to hold my loved ones while I have them, and release them when the time comes. I am not very concerned about my cheese consumption.

Even more helpful, I found my favorite quote from Kathleen Norris the other day. I hope you like it.

Before you begin a thing, remind yourself that difficulties and delays quite impossible to foresee are ahead. If you could see them clearly, naturally you could do a great deal to get rid of them but you can't. You can only see one thing clearly, and that is your goal. Form a mental picture of that and cling to it through thick and thin.

4 Comments:

  • For a person like me who thinks he can avoid all obstacles if he plans well enough in advance, such advice is extremely helpful. I don't want to become a "non-planner" but I do want to increase my ability to not worry about those things that inevitably will come.

    Finally, whenever I hear the word, "Norris" I think of a cat, and you know what that does to me. (Ms. Norris is a character in harry potter)

    By Blogger Jimmy, at 10:12 AM  

  • My guess is that if we did see our obstacles and difficulties, there is no way in hell we would ever begin.

    Please read my blog, Jenell--Buttons and I are so proud of it. We want to know what you think of it.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 2:50 PM  

  • Anna,
    Tell me where to go to read Button's blog - I went to latterdaysofscorpio and it's the post about federal policy...???

    By Blogger Jenell, at 3:14 PM  

  • Jenell,

    Buttons is Katie Hutton and we wrote the federal policy piece on my blog.

    What do you think?

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 1:28 PM  

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Wednesday, February 09, 2005

No Lent For Me

I can’t observe Lent because I am useless. I can’t even go to the Lent service at church because I’m afraid it will make me cry too hard and get sick. My spirituality has been reduced to one prayer, “God, please don’t take my babies. Please let me have them for awhile.” That prayer is my only spiritual practice, and I can’t give it up. I can’t give up eating, because I have to eat whatever I can, whenever I can. I can’t give up shopping, because my back hurts too much to walk around a store anyway. I can’t give up anything that brings me pleasure, like petting cats or sleeping, because I need small pleasures like I need air. I can’t add any practices to my life, either, because that would just be too hard.

I’ve recently read, or am in process of reading, four books by disabled authors. One has only one leg that is useless (Andre Dubus), one is agoraphobic, suicidal, and has MS (Nancy Mairs), one is old and weak (May Sarton), and the other, Nancy Eisen, doesn’t state what her disability is. I’m not disabled in these ways, but I need to read other people voicing what it’s like to be newly, and for them, permanently, limited. I am an abusive reader, using their words to prompt the thought, “I’m glad I’m not you,” reminding myself that my journey of limitations will end in the foreseeable future.

I recite each day what I can’t do. I can’t go for a walk. I can’t work out. I can’t go to work. I can’t do very much in the evenings. I can’t keep commitments I make to friends. I can’t control my emotions. Instead, I live like an animal, reproducing for some instinctive reason I can’t even articulate. I eat when I’m hungry, and can’t wait even twenty minutes for food. I sleep all the time, and can’t stay up late even for E.R. Instead of anticipating my brain to spark a clever thought or teaching idea, I lay in silence for minutes and minutes each day, hands on belly, tactile-listening for pains or contractions or morse code messages. My spiritual and mental life is very small, and my physical life is very large.

A few months after our triplets died, James asked me, “What do you do all day?” I wasn’t working, wasn’t nursing, wasn’t doing anything. I said, “I grieve. All day, every day.” So, what do I do now? I gestate. I eat, sleep, pray, read, write, send birthday cards, pet the cats, and think of people I love. And I still grieve, too, everyday but not all day. And this will have to be enough. I am reminded of John Milton’s poem (16th century?) about his blindness, which I’ll post below.

But I can’t observe Lent, and that’s that. I really miss myself, and I hope I return.


On His Blindness
WHEN I consider how my light is spent
E're half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one Talent which is death to hide,
Lodg'd with me useless, though my Soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, least he returning chide,
Doth God exact day-labour, light deny'd,
I fondly ask; But patience to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts, who best
Bear his milde yoak, they serve him best, his State
Is Kingly. Thousands at his bidding speed
And post o're Land and Ocean without rest:
They also serve who only stand and waite.



7 Comments:

  • I am so sorry. Wow. Even though I do not know you, you are in my thoughts today (if that doesn't sound too creepy).

    Have you read Lewis's "A Grief Observed?"

    By Blogger Ryan Lee Sharp, at 12:41 PM  

  • I've decided to "add" the habit of taking care of myself. Since I rarely if ever do this anyway, taking care of myself doesn't seem selfish so much as something God wants anyway. I think you are doing nothing less than taking care of yourself and your children; what could be a better lent than that?

    By Blogger Jimmy, at 1:01 PM  

  • that was beautiful.

    By Blogger pete, at 2:33 PM  

  • Well, Jenell, sounds like you gave up being useful--which isn't a bad thing in my opinion. Giving up being a superhero Christian, who NEEDS to be doing things for God because...because why. Because he needs us to?

    I think giving up being useful means just being you--and that's you gestating and preparing to be a mom. And maybe some of that is learning how to give up fear and worry and the "shoulds" of life and just be. Maybe that's right where God wants you in this Lent season.

    Love you from cyberspace. Love you as an acquaintance and a regular visitor on Friday nights. Love you from afar, but love you as best I can anyway.

    By Blogger Solomon's Girl, at 2:49 PM  

  • I know of few things in the world more useful than creating little hearts, hands, and feet. You have been on my mind and heart lately so much. I wept when I saw that you left our names and birthdays on the Friday night group list. It is the smallest things lately that send me into a torrent of tears, like remembering the taste in my mouth upon eating a piece of your rhubarb pie. I know that sounds corny and maybe a bit ridiculous, but I just miss you.

    By Blogger Rachie Rach and the Funky Bunch, at 3:36 PM  

  • So beautiful. All of it. Thanks for being real.

    Kristin

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:20 AM  

  • Well, SOlomon's Girl said what I wanted to say, except she said it first and she said it better.

    Like the first commenter, I've never met you, Jenell, but you are a joy to me in the 'sphere. Thank you.

    By Blogger Hugo, at 6:37 PM  

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Tuesday, February 08, 2005

One for the Crapper

I woke up this morning petting Opal, and thinking of Al. He is pictured in the sidebar here. Jimmy is threatening to hasten Al's demise if he craps outside the box 97 more times (or is it less than 97 now?). I love Al for a number of reasons. He's a boy, and I only have girl cats. He has a big head, which I like in a cat. He reminds me of Shadrach, my childhood boy cat, and he has also been a point of bonding between Emily and I.

My brainstorm this morning was that we all could tithe craps to Al. Ruby, Opal, and I are each willing to tithe one crap today to Al. We may produce more, but we discussed it, and that's really all we can spare. Ruby left one outside already, and that one can't count. Craps for Al must be in a container, any kind of your choosing.

What say you? Contribute in the comments section if you'd like, and then we'll petition Jimmy to add the tithed craps back to Al's diminishing total.

A Second Concern
Pete has started blogging again, and apparently stopped because his ideas may or may not have been important and worthy of internet publication. This matter of blogs containing important information raises some serious concerns about the worthiness of my blog. I'm pretty sure I don't care, however, because this blog is quite obviously non-required reading!

12 Comments:

  • are you kidding?!? I check your blog EVERY DAY, sometimes more than once, to see if you've posted.

    If only I was taking a class from you and could thus get credit for it...

    By Blogger pete, at 12:17 PM  

  • OK, whatever, Pete. Could you please focus on saving Al's life?

    By Blogger Jenell, at 12:29 PM  

  • I think this is a noble cause, because in the end, I don't think I can be a terminator of the crapinator. I sincerely want to strangle the idea of Al, but not Al himself. I respectfully submit that in lieu of tithing crap to Al's total number, people tithe ideas as to how to re-teach Al that he might very well get caught up in the wheelspokes of the exercise bike by "accident" if he doesn't learn to stop crapping beside it.

    ps. I admire your love of my cat.

    By Blogger Jimmy, at 12:54 PM  

  • crap, girl; pagitt posted a pic of his dog's haircut. if that can be blogged, than we can post anything we want.

    i would like to offer my craps to Al, but since i am of weak constitution, i hope you will offer my every-other-day tithe. (TMI!TMI!)

    By Blogger kp, at 1:40 PM  

  • I am with KP on this one.

    -jbradley

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:42 PM  

  • i don't know-- my cats poop outside the box almost every week...

    By Blogger pete, at 4:21 PM  

  • Pete, if outside the box crap doesn't bother you then perhaps you'd like to have the crapinator and his sister Tipper.

    By Blogger Jimmy, at 9:16 PM  

  • oooh, it's tempting. but i think four cats in our little East Side house might be too many. that, and the fact that Nermal, our former street cat, would probably eat any new animals that join our household. the only reason she hasn't eaten Aurora is because Aurora is part Maine Coon and weighs about twice what Nermal does.

    and finally: i want to set up my saltwater aquarium again after a 3 year hiatus, and the last thing i need is 2 more cats who will try to go fishing regularly.

    but thanks!

    By Blogger pete, at 12:06 AM  

  • Hello fellow fisherman,

    Did you know that 16% of the U.S. population goes fishing at least 16 days a year?

    Did you also know that over 75% of the nations fishermen do not fish during "prime time"; fish feeding hours?

    Those precious few moments before twilight can be absolutely magical. Even up until 11pm at night, the largest predators of any species feed ravenously.

    Don't believe me? Check out Daniel Eggertsen's story, and a picture of a couple of his catches here : "Evening Secrets plus more"

    I want you to do me a favor and try it out so I can see what you think of it, and if it works for you as well as it did for me.

    You will be one of the first to try it out.

    Gone Fishin',

    Neil

    By Blogger Quit Smoking, at 12:33 AM  

  • Lieben Sie katze genauso wie wir? Besuchen Sie doch unsere Seite mit hunderten von Katzen und Kitten (natürlich mit Foto!).
    Auf zur Katzenzüchterliste!katze

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:12 PM  

  • Nice blog. Check out my premium cat food blog.

    By Blogger unixlinux, at 5:45 AM  

  • That was helpful. I think you might be interested in checking out 75 gallon saltwater aquarium

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:51 PM  

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Monday, February 07, 2005

Assortment.

Does anyone have a copy of The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time that I can borrow? I'm on request wait lists at three libraries.

I feel that oranges are very wonderful. Oranges are the only food that inspires me to pray while eating it. I can finally eat raw fruit again and am loving it.

I have some strong feelings about Dots. In the original box, I like the pink ones. If I were a diva, I'd have my assistant customize boxes of only pink and red dots for me. In the tropical box, I like red and blue. The orange ones taste like feet, and the yellow ones are weird.

I've been home almost all the time for seven weeks, and this is the first time I've felt a little bit bored.


1 Comments:

  • I have a copy I can send you, e-mail me if you're interested. Thinking about oranges now - think I'll go have one.

    By Blogger anj, at 8:35 PM  

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Saturday, February 05, 2005

The Present Moment

In the present moment, I can see a cardinal out one window and squirrels out the other. The cardinal just flew away. I woke up to the sound of birds, for the first time since winter. There were two cats in my bed. My retching was brief, and now I've eaten and started reading Endgame: A Journal of the Seventy Ninth Year, by May Sarton. I can hear James breathing, still asleep.

Today is a day to practice living in the present, because it is sunny and warm, perhaps it will be close to 50 degrees again. Tomorrow it will be cold with sloppy rain, and I may be more sick. But in this moment, I have more reasons than I need to be content.

What's good about your morning?

3 Comments:

  • i woke up this morning to the sound of my little boy needing attention. after i picked him up and brought him into our bedroom, he fell asleep quickly, warm and safe.

    i'm at work now, which isn't super great, but nobody else is here, so i can get a lot done. i'm listening to old big band 78's on a public radio station from Kentucky that i grew up listening to. i am nostalgic for home, but i am content knowing that the weather here was warmer yesterday than it was in atlanta.

    By Blogger pete, at 11:26 AM  

  • - Waking up to a brilliant blue sky and abundant sunshine, after endless days of grey gloomy sky and pouring rain.

    - Waking up and then turning over and sleeping in for another half-hour.

    - Waking up to a quiet house and making coffee for my family.

    (PS: Jenell, I've been reading your blog consistently since I surfed onto it from Jen Lemen's site. Your writing is delightful.)

    By Blogger Dilys, at 4:45 PM  

  • I love May Sarton.

    Saturday morning there was a newspaper to read, coffee to drink, a chinchilla to massage and a fiancee to snuggle with.

    By Blogger Hugo, at 4:36 PM  

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Thursday, February 03, 2005

Live by me?

The house next to ours is for sale - it's a '70s ranch style 2-level in Mounds View...that probably makes no one want it. Let me know if you're interested. There's one around the corner, too. I want some neighbors I like, because we have huge backyards that we could share.

It's been a hard week for eating, which also makes it hard to think, which leaves little blog about. I'm out of good reading, also. My book club is meeting tonight to talk about Old School by Tobias Wolff. After that, it's Christianity Today, Christian Century, and when I get really desperate, Rolling Stone. I read Rolling Stone's Grammy picks this morning, and got half way through before I realized I don't even know who the artists are.

12 Comments: